More fun with VA ABC!

[war fart]

newsone.com/3218126/martese-johnson-lawsuit-against-virginia-liquor-agents-arrest/

[estprofinhumboldt]

Oct 22, 2015 8:55:05 GMT -5 war fart said:

newsone.com/3218126/martese-johnson-lawsuit-against-virginia-liquor-agents-arrest/

Injustice pisses me off. You think we'd all be used to it by now, but somehow I feel more angry with each new episode.

[smosey wales]

So many of these type problems are rooted in the warrior mentality of law enforcement, and it's particularly bad with things like ABC violations. I understand that street cops in bad places--city and country--are often in real danger, and are targets, especially in a riot.

But swat teams to raid a barber shop to check for licenses (true story)? Black ops swarming that girl in Charlottesville in a dark parking lot who may have bought beer underage? Inexcusable.

And most of the out-of-scale mentality comes from the polemics of the "war" on drugs, coupled with too many kids raised on video games and B-grade movies who become cops.

[southernman]

Oct 22, 2015 9:58:46 GMT -5 smosey wales said:

So many of these type problems are rooted in the warrior mentality of law enforcement, and it's particularly bad with things like ABC violations. I understand that street cops in bad places--city and country--are often in real danger, and are targets, especially in a riot.

But swat teams to raid a barber shop to check for licenses (true story)? Black ops swarming that girl in Charlottesville in a dark parking lot who may have bought beer underage? Inexcusable.

And most of the out-of-scale mentality comes from the polemics of the "war" on drugs, coupled with too many kids raised on video games and B-grade movies who become cops.

You mean the woman who bought a case of water at Harris Teeter? Yes, that was horrible. I think you gave a good line on the root cause. This person was not showing any aggressive tendencies and this incident was solely precipitated by the overly aggressive nature of the officers. Of course I have to believe race plays some factor in this incident as well. Also plays heavily into the public reaction. Amazing how many times I heard people refer to this guy as a thug, as opposed to the much more sympathetic reaction the sorority girl got.

There was a proposal to eliminate the special ABC officers in the general Assembly this spring, but I think it failed in committee

[smosey wales]

My guess is that race probably did not have anything to do with the incident as it happened; it was a student/cop dynamic, but I completely agree that race quickly became a big issue, deserved or not.

[southernman]

So, smosey, not to get too political on this music board, but Here is my sort of sense of the dynamics:

It is very difficult to tell if racial animus played a part in any one incident. Of course there was a student/cop dynamic. However, how many underage students are there on the corner every weekend try to drink? Why did this guy end up the one getting slammed on the sidewalk? Such things often come down to subtle clues of attitude, respect, aggression, etc. that are impossible to determine, maybe even if we had body cameras on every incident, but certainly in the absence of complete tapes. So, in any one case, the cop says that it was purely procedure and had nothing to do w/ race, and generally is believed. While being white/respectable doesn't preclude such an interaction (as we see in the Harris-Teeter incident, it can even happen to pretty white sorority girls), the aggregate statistics determine that people are "policed" very different based on race. Black people are arrested four times more often than whites for marijuana possession although every indicator we have is that both races use at very similar rates.

So, I can believe race played some role in this, you can believe it doesn't In the end neither of us can prove that it did. But we all should be aware that race plays a significant role in the entire process.

Of course race is only one factor. Having long hair also puts you at risk for significantly different policing. I've experienced this even though I am, overall, a fairly respectable looking hippie.

Anyway, enough for me today...

[buddy74]

Oct 23, 2015 8:19:13 GMT -5 southernman said:

So, smosey, not to get too political on this music board, but Here is my sort of sense of the dynamics:

It is very difficult to tell if racial animus played a part in any one incident. Of course there was a student/cop dynamic. However, how many underage students are there on the corner every weekend try to drink? Why did this guy end up the one getting slammed on the sidewalk? Such things often come down to subtle clues of attitude, respect, aggression, etc. that are impossible to determine, maybe even if we had body cameras on every incident, but certainly in the absence of complete tapes. So, in any one case, the cop says that it was purely procedure and had nothing to do w/ race, and generally is believed. While being white/respectable doesn't preclude such an interaction (as we see in the Harris-Teeter incident, it can even happen to pretty white sorority girls), the aggregate statistics determine that people are "policed" very different based on race. Black people are arrested four times more often than whites for marijuana possession although every indicator we have is that both races use at very similar rates.

So, I can believe race played some role in this, you can believe it doesn't In the end neither of us can prove that it did. But we all should be aware that race plays a significant role in the entire process.

Of course race is only one factor. Having long hair also puts you at risk for significantly different policing. I've experienced this even though I am, overall, a fairly respectable looking hippie.

Anyway, enough for me today...

Signs, signs.....

[war fart]

Oh, to hell with it.

"They asked me not to get too 'political.' I don't know what that means. Taking a shit is a political act. Smoking it's an even bigger one!" - Wavy Gravy

This time of year, it's just us year-rounders. I think you should feel free to say whatever you want. Anyone of us who's going to get in a snit or unfriend anyone over politics should be shunned. Just try not to get too upset when some account-less n00b wonder chimes in with his/her two cents.


Anyways, we can shout them down.

[war fart]

Also: attack the argument, not the person making it.

[Sneake]

Oct 23, 2015 13:29:41 GMT -5 war fart said:

Also: attack the argument, not the person making it.

this i like

[aparfitt]

Oct 23, 2015 13:28:46 GMT -5 war fart said:

Oh, to hell with it.

"They asked me not to get too 'political.' I don't know what that means. Taking a shit is a political act. Smoking it's an even bigger one!" - Wavy Gravy

This time of year, it's just us year-rounders. I think you should feel free to say whatever you want. Anyone of us who's going to get in a snit or unfriend anyone over politics should be shunned. Just try not to get too upset when some account-less n00b wonder chimes in with his/her two cents.


Anyways, we can shout them down.

Haven't read the thread but hey I'm a year 'rounder!

[war fart]

Oct 24, 2015 11:31:34 GMT -5 aparfitt said:

Oct 23, 2015 13:28:46 GMT -5 war fart said:

Oh, to hell with it.

"They asked me not to get too 'political.' I don't know what that means. Taking a shit is a political act. Smoking it's an even bigger one!" - Wavy Gravy

This time of year, it's just us year-rounders. I think you should feel free to say whatever you want. Anyone of us who's going to get in a snit or unfriend anyone over politics should be shunned. Just try not to get too upset when some account-less n00b wonder chimes in with his/her two cents.


Anyways, we can shout them down.

Haven't read the thread but hey I'm a year 'rounder!

Welcome to the club.

[smosey wales]

Southernman, I think you very well could be right that race was a bigger factor than I suggested, and I have no way of knowing.

The incident was bad enough without a racial aspect. But because the ABC use of force and misuse of police powers is a disturbing trend, I hope the incident will cause people to look at that, rather than put it in the "black/white cop violence" box--also an important issue.

And as you point out, there's often lots of bad stuff going on tangentially. When my daughter got the underaged drinking arrest in college (she said it was a requirement for graduation at ECU since everyone had at least one) the cops only hassled and busted the cute girls; said nothing to the boys and let them go. The Marine Police are known for this, too; it's called the "bikini density factor."